Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Hey there, everybody, and thank you very much for tuning in your best. You and Walsh Wednesday proudly present Starlight Spotlight, shining a light on the brightest stories. So we are doing this little extra spin off here to focus on leaders and pioneers in their given fields. And we're also making sure that there's some kind of Hudson Valley twist or spin to it. So with us today, we have a great example of that with we have a prolific makeup and FX artist that's been working in Hollywood for over 30 years with over 80 credits on IMDb. And I promise you, you have seen the work that he has done. It's been incredible. We also just had him on my podcast, Walsh Wednesday. So once you're done with this episode, you can go check out the other one. It's going to be a whole new thing, a whole new hour of stories. But we got this one right here to talk about the craft, the mental pursuit, the emotional pursuit, everything that goes into the craft of, of working in makeup and effects in Hollywood. So with us we have Hudson Valley native Mark Viniello. Mark, how are you?
[00:01:10] Speaker B: I'm great. Connor, how are you doing?
[00:01:12] Speaker A: All right, so we're probably going to rehash a little bit from the Walsh Wednesday one. But you were originally here from the Hudson Valley. Our dads played golf together and that's how we originally met. And you were very kind to a 10 year old Connor when you gifted him some props from the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise. And that's how our whole journey together is going. And now here we are sitting as kind of peers right now. Yeah, cool.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: It's very cool. And yeah, I'm happy to do it. I mean, I remember being that 10 year old kid and like loving movies and stuff. So I just thought, you know, how awesome would it be if I could, if somebody shared that with me, I'm like, my head would have exploded. And I think it's great that we're now able to reconnect again as contemporaries and, you know, talk about this stuff.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: No, absolutely. One thing's for sure, my head did explode. So did everybody else at school because I brought that stuff to show and tell. It was incredible. I remember it was Will Turner's key. I mean, sorry, Will Turner's coin, Davy Jones key. And then you sent a bunch of pictures from your filmography. And just like we did with the Walsh Wednesday episode, let's kind of lay it all out for everybody. What are some of the films that people would recognize your work from?
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Well, if we want to go back in Semi chronological order. The Santa Claus with Tim Allen. The original Jumanji with Robin Williams. The Toby Maguire, Spider man films 1 and 2. I worked on the Passion of the Christ. I worked on White Chicks, which gets a lot of attention.
I contributed to Stranger Things Season 1, the Mandalorian TV show, and the upcoming Mandalorian and Grogu movie. Lord of the Rings, Starship Troopers, Alien Resurrection, Avengers, Infinity War. We worked with a little thing, a gag on the Vision for that film.
The Tomorrow War with Chris Pratt.
Imaginary. Blumhouse is imaginary. About the evil teddy bear.
I know I'm skipping a bunch, but they all kind of blended together once. While Blade two.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Hey, you got, like, dozens of credits. You've been working in this industry for, like, 30 years. Did you mention the Lord of the Rings trilogy? I forget.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: I did, yeah. Lord, you have to always have to mention that that one was a very special film. And I just happened to connect with my old boss, Richard Taylor, the other night. He received a lifetime achievement award at the Visual Effects Society. And I got to crash the party and spent some time with my old boss, and we caught up.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome. Tell us about that. What was that like, going to this and kind of celebrating such an iconic moment in. In movie history? You know, obviously, lifetime achievement. That's a lifetime that he's going with here. But like, your old boss from that time period, that must have been so cool to reconnect and kind of, like, share those moments with each other again.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: He hasn't changed at all. It was great to just see him there. And we just kind of sat in the corner, he and I, because I caught him after the awards, and we just kind of went to the corner. We just caught up, talked about our kids, talked about artwork that he was doing. And, you know, he invited the family down to kind of visit him in New Zealand one of these days, which I think I'm going to take him up on, because he is one of those just unique individuals, just a scholar and a gentleman and an artist in his soul. Like, I don't know how else to describe him. And I think it would be great for my daughter Katie, who's an artist, to kind of see the wet workshop and kind of see what they do down there, because it is a very, very special place.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome. Okay, so your daughter's into this now, so it's kind of becoming a family business.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Well, she's an artist. She's a. She's a real artist, but she's not.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: You're A real artist.
I mean, I make monsters.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Like, she's so. So what my daughter has that I don't have. Right. Don't feel I ever had is there's a certain amount of creativity. Like, I made up for it by doing really cool technical stuff. But conceptually she's much more creative than I am. For example, the example I give is her Halloween cost was a long white T shirt that said Life in black letters across the front. And she had a bowl of lemons and would throw them at people.
Exactly right.
[00:05:06] Speaker A: So that.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Like, I, like I could never. I'd have this elaborate zombie makeup and I would lose the costume contest to that. A five dollar costume that was just conceptually very clever. Yes.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: So that is amazing. Both are amazing, though. Both are amazing in their own rights. But I, I like that. That is hilarious. But that's cool, though, that you guys kind of get to share in the love of art and the art of creativity here. I think I. I think that's phenomenal. So, yeah, let's kind of break into this. You know, for those who want to hear some more stories about specific films, go check out the Walsh Wednesday. But I wanted to talk about the craft and I want to talk about, you know, kind of the mental and emotional aspect that goes into a lot of this. And this is going to be a very weighted question, I know, to start, but talk about the moments where you've seen the physical transformation help separate actors from themselves. When you transform an actor, whether yourself or somebody else, how do you see that affecting their mental and emotional performance? Do you think the external appearance can change their internal identity, even just for a moment, to get further into that character?
[00:06:13] Speaker B: For some actors, definitely. Some actors use it as a tool.
Some actors, dare I say, might use it as a crutch. Other actors, it's worse than going to the dentist for them where they, they feel restricted and they feel covered up.
It really just depends on the actor because, you know, acting, there's so many different ways and places to get to that moment that you need to when you're doing a performance. And I have a tremendous amount of respect for actors. There's a. It's a craft and it is an art form in its.
Especially film acting because it also has to be very technical.
But, you know, some actors really get into it and it is a very collaborative process. Other actors are like, okay, are we done yet? You know, and then they just want to go and then get in and out of it. So it really depends. And it also depends under what context? What's the character? So, you know, like, Bradley Cooper, when he directed and started Maestro, he had an amazing. One of the greatest prosthetic makeups ever committed to film.
And that, you know, really helped him capture the essence of who Leonard Bernstein was. You know, one of. One of my favorite makeups that I think also could be one of the greatest makeups and performances ever done is Colin Farrell and the Penguin, and that I couldn't find Colin anywhere in. In the performance look. And it. I mean, that makeup was done by Mike Marino, who is a. Is a phenomenal artist. And that's a situation where, you know, I mean, you're just caught in the story. You forget you're looking at. At Colin. Frell. You know, you see Brad Pitt in the film, and it's Brad Pitt. And that's part of the fun going there like this. I. I mean, I'm looking at this. This charact, this whole story unfold that I was. It completely took me away. And, you know, Colin, from my understanding, was into it. Like, he really wanted to just immerse himself in this and just disappear, which he did. And it really also showed his acting chops that he is a.
An excellent, excellent actor, without a doubt.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Oh, my God. The performance in the Penguin. And it's just funny. Like, I've seen people online, I've talked to friends, and they're.
Even after knowing that it's Colin Farrell,
[00:08:13] Speaker B: it's like, I can't find him. I can't find him anywhere usually. Sometimes you can kind of see a glimpse somewhere, like, either in the eyes or something. And he has very distinct, almost doe eyes gone. Like, I don't. And. And I know where to look for edges and stuff, too. Like, is a perfect makeup and character. Like, again, I tip my hat to Mike Marino and his team because it is. It is. It's pretty flawless.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: No, I think that's really incredible. But it's interesting what you said there, how some actors see it as a way of escaping into the character, and others see it as grueling and restrictive in certain aspects. I'll admit, in my time as an actor, you know, I've done a lot of stage more than I've done film.
I've always felt like, get the makeup on me, or even if it's just a simple costume or a simple outfit, or I'm just simply changing my facial hair, like, that alone is enough for me to be like, okay, I'm stepping into the character, and I know that it really helps me. So you've Worked on so many films. Could you give us an example or a couple examples of performances where you felt the makeup effects that you did on somebody led to them immersing themselves in those roles?
[00:09:23] Speaker B: I mean, I can't. It's hard to say specifically. One of my favorites is Rick Baker doing Eddie Murphy for Nutty Professor.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: And he did. You know, the first character that Rick finished was the Moment, and he made up Eddie. And Eddie loves makeup. He plays around with it. You know, he did some great stuff. He did some great stuff in Coming to America. And, you know, when Eddie was looking in the mirror, he was just like, rick, this is. This is fantastic. He goes, but I. I got nothing. I don't know. I don't know what to do with this. So Rick said he sat him down, he put a camera in front of me, turned it on, and all he said, the only prompt he gave Eddie Murphy was, tell me about your son, Sherman.
And then a switch was flipped, and he became the character, and that was all he needed. And that character was born. That. So, you know, Eddie is one of those actors that really does like to.
And I think it showed what an incredible actor he is. I mean, that dinner scene in the first night of professor talking to himself, and he has to remember what he did and who's responding. Like, I mean, it took a week to shoot that scene. But it is pretty unbelievable. What. And again, those characters are so distinct and so different. You know, it's pretty amazing. So, you know, it really depends on the actor if they want to go through it. Gary Oldman's one who loves, you know, getting in the makeup, and he's very collaborative with the actors. You know, there's some actors that aren't. Mike Myers did not like being in prosthetics, even though he's done several films, and he is a wonderful actor. He couldn't stand it.
[00:10:46] Speaker A: He's done so much of his career in prosthetics.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: He hated Fat Bastard. He hated that costume. Really?
Yeah. And that was process at all.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: That was one of the Austin Power films you worked on, right? Which one was the only one I've worked at.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: That's the only Austin Powers to the Spy who Shagged Me. Yeah, that's my first job at Stan Winston Studio, and Stan was really into it because it was making a funny character. Stan was, you know, was. Stan was an actor when he started, and he was all about the characters, and he says, we're not making. We're creating characters. That was his motivation for doing this stuff. You Know, you never just filmed it in. You were. You were creating something. And, you know, you take that into consideration when you're doing the makeup. So, for example, we would. We would make. You know, when you're making a prosthetic appliance, you get a skin tone of the actor, and you. And you talk to the makeup artist. You try to tint the prosthetics. So it kind of works with the coloring. And I remember we started, you know, going down this road making appliances, and Stan comes in on a Friday and goes, we have to. We have to rerun all these. And I'm like, why? And he said, he's Scottish, so. Fat bastards. A Scottish character. And Scots are very pale, and these are way too tan and too warm. And I kind of grumbled until he brought me up and showed me. We had a head of Mike Myers, and half was made up with one color, half was made up more Scottish. And I'll be. I was like, he's right. We have to change it. So we wound up working all weekend to change it. So. But. So it's those kind of details. You know, you keep it. You know, when you're designing and makeup, those are things you have to keep
[00:12:07] Speaker A: in mind, without a doubt. Funny enough, you know, I think Austin Powers 2 is actually probably my favorite out of the Austin Powers trilogy. What would you say, even though you worked on it?
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I'm biased, but I would say. Yeah. I mean, I really. The overall number two, I like the best number one, the opening sequence, when Steven Spielberg was striking the movie. That was pretty good in the. In the third one and the first one. The first one, overall, is a good film, but I really felt the second film was pretty tight, beginning to end.
And I did like the opening sequence in the.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: Yes.
No, I. I think it's great. The first one's very interesting because it challenges the idea of Austin Powers and, you know, the concept of monogamy and whatnot. But you could tell that they were still very much figuring out every character.
But by the second one, like, everybody knew what they were there to do. And that. That. That's so cool. So, you know, since we're still on it and you're talking about how Mike Myers didn't like the prosthetics in that series alone. You know, he's awesome. He's fat bastard, he's Dr. Evil. You get into the next one, he's Goldmember. Yeah, all that.
So how do you. So as a makeup artist, how do you deal with an actor who is struggling with the prosthetics, you try to
[00:13:24] Speaker B: work with them and you try to figure out what. Where the issue is coming from. I mean, it could be something they're not even aware of. I know a lot of actors feel restrictive because the prosthetics, it is something glued on every inch of your face. It is. It can feel restricting, and a lot of times you have to almost overact your expression so that it will read through the appliances. I mean, you know, Jim Carrey on the Grinch was like, I can't move my face. And they're looking at going, you're moving your face better than anybody that's ever been in prosthetics ever. Dude, you know, he's got such a rubbery face as it is, but to him, it was. It was very restrictive. It was very hard for him to be in that character as well. It's very uncomfortable. And I get it. You got to go in before the crew is there, sit in a chair while someone's in your face, like, poking and sticking, and the cold glue is on you, and you're in it for three or four hours, and then you got to go to work for another eight to 10 hours, and then when you come back, it's another hour or so to get it off.
So it's. It is grueling. I mean, but, you know, a lot of people, like, you know, cry me a river. How many millions are you getting paid? So. But it is. It is very taxing, and it is, you know, to keep that energy up and to do those performances. It's. It's. It's a lot of work.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: I can only imagine. I don't think I've ever done anything that crazy costume wise. I've done some crazy Halloween costumes, but never to the extent of that. And I'm not a huge cosplayer. I would love to be Funny how you mentioned. Oh, go ahead.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: I was going to say that, you know, doing it for Halloween is awesome. I love doing it for Halloween. And then. But when you're doing it, like, every day, every other day for 40 days, it gets old. The process gets old. And I think that's. That's something that really, you know, because I always love making myself up. And then when I started doing it, like, this is awesome. And you know by, like, day 12, you're like, okay, I'm gonna go to the happy place, because that glue is really cold, and it's really cold this morning when they're putting. Putting you in the thing. So. Yeah. And it's again, it's just not for everybody. But I. You know, as a kid, I discovered that when I put that stuff on it, I wasn't shy anymore. Like, I just immersed myself in the character. And it really did help me, like, just come out of my shell by putting us. And I found out, like, I was saying things that Mark Vanilla would never say. Where's this coming from? It is very freeing. And some actors do find that again, others are like, no, thank you.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: No. It's. It's an interesting thing to, first of all, immerse yourself into a new character, but then to have that physical transformation, that's a whole other level one. I want to explore that further. I want to just mention how you brought up Jim Carrey's the Grinch. I spoke with Clint Howard a few years ago, and he was talking about that film. We could have talked all day about the film he was actually in to talk about a soap opera. We barely talked about the soap opera. We talked about the.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: He's had a career. He's been on Star Trek. I mean, let's talk about a career.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Like, incredible career. Austin Powers as well. He was in Austin Powers.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: He was in Tango and Cash. Like, he's like. He's done everything. So, yeah, he's got a. I'd love to talk to him.
[00:16:20] Speaker A: Oh, my God, he was great. I literally had the agent in my ears, like, get him back on topic, talk about the soap opera.
And I'm like, I'm trying to. But either way, it was a lovely time. But one thing that he mentioned about Jim Carrey's Grinch, he said that they brought in CIA agents who are known.
Who are. Who are in the CIA for, like, how to withstand torture.
They taught Jim Carrey ways to withstand torture, to withstand the makeup and the whole bodysuit. I think that is insane to that level.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: But I heard. I heard it was a Navy seal. I've never asked my colleagues if it was true or if it was like, one of those. Like, that makes a really good story, you know? But, you know, the thing, too, about that is that Rick Baker designed the makeup, and a guy named Kazuhiro, who did. Leonard Bernstein, who was one of the greatest makeup artists that ever lived, was applying it. And Kazu is one of the fastest makeup artists ever. So on a makeup that would take four hours, Kazo will do it in two, maybe less. And what he does is he'll. He'll make all these copies of an actor's face. Like, I don't know, seven to 10 copies. And he'll make all these appliances and he'll time himself and he'll apply it on each head. So by the time he comes into the trailer the first day, he's already applied the makeup 10 times. Because typically you apply the makeup, you do a test, and then as you get going, you know, if the makeup takes four hours, by the end of the show, you're down to like, three, you know, so he's already done all that. Like, he's already mastered putting this thing on. And he. So Jim doesn't know how lucky he was that he had someone like Kazu applying it, because that would be, you know, two guys in four hours instead of one guy. I think he did it like, 90 minutes, which is.
Yeah, so. But, you know, and again. And that was the kind of joke, too. It's like, people like, you know, didn't Jim carrey get like $20 million to play the Grinch?
And I'm like, that's. I wouldn't need us. That's motivation enough for me. I would have been like, okay, let's do this.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah, can we?
[00:18:21] Speaker B: Uncomfortable to make it feel like it's worth something.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: I know, right? It's $20 million. I don't know if I'll ever see that amount of money in my lifetime. But we'll see. We'll see. However, like, let's talk about the craft of it. Of course, not only have you put the prosthetics on other people, you've been in it yourself. We've talked about this before. You have been one of the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park 3. You have fitted yourself. You have been on film yourself. So you have gone through it in one way or another as a monster, as an alien, as a dinosaur, whatever it might be.
What would you say this is a two parter? What would you say was like, probably one of your most fun and rewarding experiences under the makeup? And then what do you think would be one of the most challenging experiences you had under the makeup?
[00:19:10] Speaker B: Challenging is easy. That's Jurassic park through the Trinidad costume. That was. That was a.
A very difficult costume to perform in. And. But Stan Winston, who was very smart guy, he hired a personal trainer for me and John Rosenbrand, who's in the raptor suit, to make sure we were in shape. By the time we were on set and we could withstand the demands and the hours, and thank God he did, I was in the best shape of my life, so that really, really helped. But you're enclosed inside this costume. I. I've got a little visor With a screen. I've got air tubes coming in. I mean, I'm, I'm sealed inside this thing like this and I'm completely incapac.
Like, God forbid there was an earthquake or the stage caught on fire. Like, I don't, I don't know how to get me out of the thing because the costume was massive. So that was, that was very challenging. The baby Godzilla suit was challenging. But Patrick Topless had us trained for months ahead of time to be prepared for that. So one of the more fun ones, believe it or not, was the Chupacabra from Chupacabra Dark Seas, which is a sci fi film.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: And you know, my colleague Ken Niederbomber and I made the costume, we shot it down to Turks and Caicos. And I'm thinking, you know, how can I, what does a Chupacabra look like? And I said, well, it's in a humanoid form. It's a predatory animal. I said, yeah, maybe. And I know it's a lizard looking thing, but maybe if I did some type of chimp movements or stuff. So I tried to keep some type of, you know, primate registered movements in it. You know, alien resurrection. You know, the head's on top of your head and you're looking at the neck. So you have to remember if I'm, if the aliens looking at you, I'm like looking at your belt buckle as opposed to if I'm looking you in the eyes, the aliens looking over your head. So. And it's also you trying to remember that and you know, make the head move first when it turns and, and you know, try to think about, you know, it's a predator, so it's going to be very distinct in its movements, you know, maybe reserve a little energy until it strikes. So you try to do all these things and you know, references from nature when you're, when you're being a character, you know, watching gorillas walk quadruped, you know, there's a, there's a specific way when you're going to walk quadruped. You know, your right arm will come forward, but then your left leg moves. The tendency is, is when you're walking all fours is like left arm, left leg, right arm, left leg, you know, so it's parallel. And that's not how quadruped animals walk. They alternate when they walk. So it's training yourself to do little things like that because when you're tired or when you're fatigued and you know, in pain, you kind of go back to a default move. So you really got to train yourself that even when you're exhausted, this is how you're going to move. It's where you do it so much. But you can't do it wrong even if you wanted to.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: So it's way more than just simply putting on the costume you like. You are really trying to get into the mind of whatever you're trying to be here. In a couple cases, there's not necessarily a real life reference for a Chupacabra, a predator. All these different things, you know, dinosaur. We haven't seen a dinosaur in years. But, you know, a few years they haven't been around for, I don't know, what, a couple years, you know, but
[00:22:04] Speaker B: a couple years they've been there. But the destroyer from Xena too, that was another one that this, this was a character that had to interact. Not only fight Xena, but you had to interact with. With Hope. And, and it's like a mother son thing. And, and you know, he wanted to be loved by her. Like, how do you convey that when you're in a costume? So you, you try to think of all these pantomime things you can do. And, and it's great when you're working with a good actor because it is almost like, you know, playing table tennis back and forth. You know, you're giving something, you're taking. It's, it's really. It was really an experience working on that show. I should send you some clips of that so. Because that'll do. The ways to try and, you know, convey, I mean, the sound effects help and everything and the editing really helps when it's there.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: But, you know, when you're there on
[00:22:42] Speaker B: the set, how do you, you know, how do you do this? You know, the director will give you stuff to give you ideas. And you know, it's. It really is a collaborative process because sometimes you'll think, you know, they'll even. Sometimes, you know, the mega effects guys that are helping me get dressed like, okay, move over here. Now tilt your left shoulder down. And you know, okay, that looks great. And without fail, the thing that is the most uncomfortable position to be in is usually the one that looks the best, even when you're just sitting there. So that's, that's always something like, I'm like, okay, let me make sure. Okay, now it really hurts. Yeah, that's the one they like. So.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Oh, of course. Oh, always can never win without that. But. But it gets some of the greatest shots and then you kind of look back on it and you're like, yeah, they're right.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Kind of like the line from a three o' clock Kai. A pain is temporary film is forever. So there you go.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: There you go. I think of Princess Bride. Life is pain. Anybody who tells you otherwise is to selling something, something.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Yup.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: I think about that, like, too.
Oh, my God, there's so much. Also the Replacements with Keanu Reeves.
Was it pain? Heels, chick stick, Scars, Glory. Lasts forever.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: That's always forever. Yep. That's a great one. Yeah.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Yep. Oh, my God. Another. Another favorite of mine. But yes. So here we are. We're talking about the different monsters, the aliens, the creatures that you've been in. You've worked on some really psychologically intense films, whether for the people working on it or for the audiences, depending which way you want to look at it. But why do you think people are drawn to horror as a genre? Or maybe not horror, but thriller, These monster. These monster movies? What do you think? What do you think it is about it that draws audiences to it and what draws you to it?
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Well, I think inherently everybody has even a slight morbid sense of curiosity. There's the old adage from newspaper prints, if it bleeds, it leads. You know, so there is a.
Almost a genetic fascination with the macabre. And, you know, going to horror movies, it is, you know, it's able to experience these things, but in a very safe environment. I mean, and, you know, when John Landis made American Werewolf in London, it kind of threw the critics because they're like, it's too scary to be a comedy, but it's too funny to be a horror film. And his reasoning was, is when there's a scare that happens in a horror film, know, when everyone jumps, the next thing you do is usually laugh about that, like, they got me, you know, so he incorporated that. And now I think it's just standard that a lot of horror films do have some funny moments in them. It just. It's natural.
You know, some people love it, some people don't. Some people like roller coasters, some people don't. But. But I do think that, that most people, you know, you. You know, Halloween, it's one of the biggest holidays ever. And, you know, everybody knows who Frankenstein, everybody knows who Dre is a certain thing in the zeitgeist about monsters and creatures and stuff, you know, and to varying levels of people's interest. But, you know, we always, you know, wondered, you know, what's in the dark? Or why are we afraid of the dark? Is it what we can't see? So. And I Think it goes back to, you know, ancient times, you know, when you only were able to light a fire. And that was the thing that kept the monsters away because it was like what was beyond the firelight and people would make up stories and. And to engage and. I don't know, it just seems to be ingrained in all of us, you know. But again, some have that gene more than others. I do. I was completely drawn to horror films as a kid. And I remember, you know, watching the old black and white films, the universe, I'm being so terrified, but I could. I mean, I could have just left the room, but I had to watch. And I was scared to get close to the TV where the monsters were, to turn the channel. But I would still just. I would just watch it. It never occurred to me, just leave. But I didn't want to. It was weird. I was.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: Repulsed, but I was still drawn to it. And then as I got older, you know, I looked at a lot of the monsters, at least the ones I was really. The universal ones. They weren't really monsters. They were kind of misunderstood. Yeah, a couple of exceptions. You know, Frankenstein, especially Frankenstein monsters. So.
And I always thought those made the really interesting, cool characters, ones that have a history and a backstory. You know, Dracula has his backstory that's been expounded upon now that he lost his love. He's been searching for eternity. You know, the Wolf man, he's, you know, he's cursed and he's these.
Very upset about this.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: The duality of man.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Yeah, all of those things play into it. You know, Dr. Jekyll, I showed my kids not too long ago. Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, the 1932 Frederick March version. They were stunned at Masterpiece Movie. It is. Yeah. And he got an Oscar for it. I mean, it was. And it's 1932. That's an old movie. To keep a. A millennial or Gen Z, whatever my kids are's attention. That's. That's. That's good filmmaking.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. Oh, my God. I remember the first time I saw that. That was back. I saw it in a class for college and I was blown away how well it held up. And it was. And no. Blew me away.
I kind of want to go watch it again now.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: No, it's excellent. The transformation scenes, the makeup that Wally Westmore did. And listening to the director talk about it, he maintained that Mr. Hyde was not evil, but it was more of the base, primal instincts, which is why he wanted him to look more like a Neanderthal, like more Ape like than this, like evil. Because in the book he's described as pale and dwarfish. So that was the director's influence that influenced the maker up in the performance.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: Yeah, no, and honestly I think it served very, very well for the, for the visual conception of what many people still think of, you know, Mr. Hyde today.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I, I think that did it perfectly. So in a way, based on what you're saying, do you feel like horror and thrillers, whether it be monster movie, slashers, whatever that might be, that it's a safe so space for people to be able to process their fear, their anxiety and their misunderstandings 100% for some.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: But just be very clear, like anything else, anything too much, it's not good. And because there are some people there that are drawn to it for the wrong reasons. And you know, I have to acknowledge that, I mean as much as I love horror films and defend horror films, like there's. There's some, some people out there that should probably be on serious medication or have doctors help. And you know, it's, you know, you look at things like Ed Gein who was, you know, the Wisconsin fiend and he didn't have access to anything that we have today and look at the stuff that he did, you know. But now you have those shows that, you know, show them they're brilliantly done. But you know, some people don't process things the same way. Some people like that's a good idea. And it's like actually it's not, you know, that's. Let's not puts these serial killers on a pedestal, which some people do. So which I find very odd. But you know. Yeah, different strokes for different folks.
[00:29:13] Speaker A: I guess it's a fascinating thing with Ed Gein because, you know, you take somebody like that and not only has his story been repeated in several mediums over the decades, but how his story had influenced so much of the horror genre as well. You know, you have Texas Chainsaw Massacre, which is very, very much ripped off from it. You have Psycho, which took elements from it as well. You had a lot of these big time horror thrillers out there that really saw the story and was able to craft a genre. You can look at it as a very good thing. You can look at it as a very bad thing. There is the duality to it, just like the duality in a lot of the characters that these genres are portraying.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: 100. I mean even silence of the Lamb, some of the characters in Buffalo Bills elements were where we're there. So he has definitely had his thumbprint in Psycho. That was, that was a big one, that film. I mean, it, it, it really turned things on its ear because up until then you never had any type of movie quite like that where this main character, you think is the main character dies like brutally on film. And it's like what. It kind of really threw people again. Alfred Hitchcock is a master filmmaker. He's just, he's just so good at what he did.
He's unparalleled the influence he has. And I think a lot of times he doesn't get the credit that he deserves for how he shaped cinema and suspense. At least nowadays. I mean, I don't hear much of him referred to. But when I was a kid, you know, film school, he started the Master of Suspense and his philosophy on filmmaking. And yeah, it is the impact that these things have on just people in general. I mean, I don't know, it's not something where I feel you should ever ban it, but I don't know how you, you know, could a film like that push someone over the edge? I don't know. I don't know if they ever have. I don't know. I mean, it's, it's hard to say. I mean, you know, but then again, like a fruit loops box could push someone over the edge. I don't know. You know what I mean, how people are gonna interpret things. So I don't know. But yeah, I still like my monster movies. I, I don't mean to do any harm and I try not to do the ones that, that celebrate the violence for violence sake. I just, I like making the monster monsters. That's where I like to focus on it.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: And it's such a creative endeavor in order to do it. And it's so cool the things that can be made out of it insane. You know, talking about Psycho, I went into a big psycho rabbit hole last Halloween where I, you know, I rewatched the film again. I was watching video essays on it. I was, oh my God, I was, I was so hooked on it. It's like another one that really holds up after all these decades, which is, oh yeah, insane, but phenomenal in, in and of itself.
So let's talk about like the creativity that goes into all this. We're talking about the kind of societal pressures, but obviously working on any kind of film set, there's a lot of pressure from directors, from managers, from producers, from people all around.
Your work requires a lot of creativity under pressure. How have you maintained your mental health and well being while Working on these projects.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Sometimes you don't, sometimes, sometimes you're like, why don't I just have an office job with a cubicle and I can, you know. But again, I say that very jokingly. You, you know what you're getting into and it is my job to inform production. This is what it's going to take. I know what you're asking for. Let me tell you how you're going to get it, or what, what it's going to take. And if I'm on set and someone's going, why is this makeup taking so long? I didn't do my job correctly. And not that I'm not trying to put it on as fat, I did not let production know, like, hey, it's gonna be two and a half, three hours if all goes well. Like, you know, and there are some things like sometimes actors can't since still they got to get up and have a smoke. And you just have to let that production know, like that's gonna add to the time.
So, you know, you do the best you can with given the time and budget and other limitations that you're given and you just, you just. And again, it's a collaborative process. I know. You know, some of the old time makeup artists would work with the director of photography because at the end of a long day, you know, makeup starts to fall off no matter how many touch ups you do. So the DP would light it a certain way and help hide some of the sins. Now they would do it digitally. We try not to do that, but that is a tool that is available to try to help when things are just not going great. Because sometimes it happens, you know. But you know, I, I love the pressure. I love being on set and I love thinking on the fly and figuring stuff out and you know, it is like being a rock star because when we show up to set, that's when the dinosaurs show up, that's when the aliens show up and the whole crew wants to see like, what does this stuff look like? So, you know, it's cool for a couple of days and then it just becomes, you know, the aliens part of the crew and it's just like, you know, one of the gangs.
[00:33:57] Speaker A: So.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah. But yeah, I love it. I just, I just, I don't, Yeah, I, I, as long as you know your job and you know, everyone else's job and the expectations, there shouldn't be really any pressure. You know, you do the, you do what you can and if something goes wrong, okay, we gotta pivot and course correct you know, I remember I was, you know, doing something on True Blood and was a scene, one of the later episodes where it was down on the docks and the ship came with vampires or something. And we're getting ready to go down there. And the, and the, the line for his crawl, he goes, well, we got a shift gears tonight. I'm like, why? Because there's no ship. And I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, the ship that was supposed to, that we paid for to have in the dock isn't here. We're trying to find it. So how do you lose a ship?
I have no idea.
[00:34:42] Speaker A: So it sounds like a line Jack Sparrow would say from Pirates of the Caribbean. How do you lose a bloody ship?
[00:34:48] Speaker B: It happens, believe me. So, you know, things catch fire, things don't grow the way there's. I mean, there's so many things that you just got to laugh and be like, all right, course correct. What are we doing now?
[00:34:59] Speaker A: What? A course correction on something like that. That is intense.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: So, Mark, I want to make sure that we get to these questions. We got roughly about 20 minutes left. I know that you have your time. We have our schedules here. This is probably going to be the most avant garde question you've probably ever gotten with any of these interviews that you've ever done.
But wait on me being that. And this is kind of going to be a multi step question being that this is Mental Health America that we are doing this for. Let's throw in a little more mental health aspects in it with your professional opinion and career.
If certain parts of mental health had visual texture or form, what would they look like or how would you conceptualize it?
Let me take you through step by step, like piece by piece. Let's say you were trying to make a conceptual, physical monster out of depression.
What do you think you would do with that?
[00:35:55] Speaker B: Well, it would be.
It's kind of tricky to say because you're almost asking, you know, what's the smell of the color 9? I can tell you how I feel if I get depressed, but I don't have clinical depression.
So it's very different, you know, and it is a very personal thing. I mean, again, I can. My daughter just did something like that. Actually, Katie, she grew a dragon that was depressed and it was very, it was very down, just the way she made the whole silhouette.
It's, you know, there is the low hanging fruit, which is, you know, it's gray, there's a cloud over you. But that, you know, I, I had a friend who went through a pretty bad bout of depression and he got on medication. And the way he described it to me is as if he's talking to me, but between he and I is like 3ft of cellophane or something that even though he could see me and I was there, there was a thing that was so thick between us that he couldn't, you know, you know, I'm trying to say. And I'm like, well, description. So, you know, again, it really comes down to, I mean, I think there have been some artists that have done some series of things on what their depression looks like, their anger and stuff. And I mean, again, you know, you look at movies like Inside out have the little characters that are different characters, different colors, you know, and some of it again is, you know, like to say low hanging fruit. But it is, you know, a very, a very personal thing. And you know, I think art can be therapeutic.
And I, I don't know if, if I'm sure it has been. I mean, my old boss, Stan Winston was he donated to a cause called Free Arts for Abused Children. Every time I see little handprint, I think of Stan in it. And their, their tagline is something like, you know, kids that have been through trauma, when they discover art, they not only create, they start to heal.
And using artist therapy. And he, I mean when they, they molded the T Rex for Jurassic park, they had drums, 55 gallon drums of clay, the oil based clay that they just donated to the kids. And the kids would make stuff out of it. So I think art is a very powerful tool. And when I say art, it could be music, it could be painting, it could be drawing, could be sculpt, whatever is very, very powerful and I think should be utilized as much as possible.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: Beautiful response out of that for sure. I was going, I was going to. No, it is a big question. And I was like, this could be very interesting.
I was going to go through a bunch of different like, disorders. But the way that you kind of summed it up is like kind of hard to go back and say, hey, describe anxiety, describe this. No, it's like what you said. Like, you're right. It is a very personal thing. And depending on like say what the writer wants, what the director wants, what the actor wants, so many different elements that go into that. I love the description that you gave about what your friend said about depression in the cellophane. That's him.
[00:38:42] Speaker B: So he was functioning like you wouldn't know. He's. You're talking to him like you're. But he felt just such a disconnection from the world around him. He just felt alone and isolated. But, I mean, I'm like, you were depressed? Like, what? And he was trying to tell me about what it was like, and I was. I was kind of stunned because, you know, you think of someone depressed, you know, like Droopy Dog or whatever, like, for me being depressed, I would make a blob, you know, that just wants to sit and eat chips and watch TV all time the day. Like, that would be me.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: That would.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: That would. For me. But that's, you know, that, that. But that's, again, just anecdotal. So. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was. It was kind of trippy. And there have been some great PSAs. Like, there was one, I think it was in Ireland or something, and it said, depression isn't what it looks like. It had these two guys that would meet for soccer games, and one guy was just kind of dejected, and the other guy was always into it, trying to get him excited. You know what it always show, like, throughout the season. And then one season, the guy who wasn't animated came and he sat down to the empty chair and it said, depression isn't what you think it is or what it appears to be.
So it was. It was very powerful. So, yeah, I. It's. It's.
Yeah. I think it would be fascinating if people could articulate in a way to make others understand what they're going through, because it. Sometimes it is very hard to describe. Yeah.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: I remember when I probably had my deepest bout with depression was probably right after one of my best friends had died.
And it was. It was.
Yeah, it was already. It was already after the pandemic. I'd already lost my grandparents, who I was a caregiver for. I lost a number of people. But this particular death really hit me hard because, yeah, he was one of my best friends.
And I just remember it felt like I was playing a third person video game. You know, I wasn't myself. It seemed like I was looking at myself from a distance and. And at the same time, I was very paralyzed in a lot of things where it's just like talking with the video game analogy, if I'm playing a third person video game where I'm trying to. I'm pressing all the buttons on the controller. Controller ain't doing anything. The controller and the character are not connecting. And that's. That is definitely one of the biggest ways that I would describe my experience with it. You know, I've been very lucky with finding a really good therapist.
I personally, my journey has taken me to take SSRIs. I'm not saying that's everybody's answer, but I know that helps me big time.
So it's just fascinating to hear everybody's different description of how they perceive that depression. I think that's fascinating. So thank you for sharing that story that your friend shared with you of the cellophane. I think that's.
Yeah, it's very profound.
[00:41:22] Speaker B: It was last inscription.
[00:41:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Mark, in the last few minutes that we have on this, I want to end this on a really nice bow. Tie it up. Let's don't have to talk about mental health as much because I made this interview very conceptual. But let's tie it back to the thing that made you and I come together.
We didn't. I don't think we talked about this on the other interview. So that's why I want to bring up this film. Let's talk about Pirates of the Caribbean.
Talk about your experience on the Pirates of the Caribbean set as a way for us to tie in this whole experience, because that is the reason, you know, you and I are sitting here today, because of that coin and that key that you gave me.
[00:42:02] Speaker B: Okay, so Pirates of the Caribbean, when it was first announced that it was coming out, I thought, who's the idiot that greenlit this thing? This is gonna. It's based on a ride. And I went to the movies. I saw the first Pirates of Caribbean. I'm like, this was my favorite film of that year. I could not believe how good it was.
So when Part two got greenlit, the makeup department head, a phenomenal legend of a makeup artist named V. Neil, who was Johnny Depp's personal at the time, was taking on a tremendous amount of the makeup work and responsibilities. A lot of times a special effects shop will be hired, and the makeup artists will, you know, apply what the shop does. But V was kind of overseeing everything. And there was a tribe of cannibals in the second film. Yes. And they had all their tribal scarring and long earlobes and all this stuff. So her main assistant, Joel Harlow, who now is a phenomenal makeup artist in his own right and has done his own films, he did a lot of the sculptures and supervised the stuff. And so then they had to have the prosthetics manufactured, and they needed hundreds of prosthetics for these characters and every day of filming. So she contacted me, and I said, I can do the job not really knowing what I was getting into.
And I've got Photos somewhere of just the hundreds and hundreds of appliances I would, would stack up on boards and they would send down to the Caribbean to apply on all these, all these, these characters. So. And then through that, you know, friends get stuff from the prop department, like the coin, like the thing. So you, you trade things like baseball cards. So that. So I did, I worked on Pirates of the Caribbean 2 and 3. There were these characters that were in a bathhouse and they had mushrooms growing out of their face.
So that was there in Singapore. Yep. Yes, yes. So that was what I did. So again, a lot of times for things like that, it's like I'm hired almost as a sub, subcontractor to just help do all this work so they have the stuff they have to apply and make everybody look cool on the day.
So those are my. Those were parts two and three.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:56] Speaker B: Thank you to V. Neal.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: Thank you to V. Neil. Absolutely. And again, that was just such, such a beautiful way that you're able to inspire 10 year old Connor at the time and inspire so many people, you know, anybody who saw the film. But I know that it really meant so much to me and I greatly appreciate that. So thank you for your involvement on it. Thank you for kind of bringing me into a sense of it. Just by sending a couple of props like that really just immerses me even further into the love of, the lore of it. And it's still one of my favorite. It's still one of my favorite franchises to this day. This is something I share with friends. This is something that I share with my girlfriend. This is something that I share with my family. I think it's such a lovely thing. So, Mark, that being said, the last thing that I really want to ask you about, the fact that you've been affiliated with so many iconic franchises that as I said with, you know, the way Pirates of the Caribbean has a special place in my heart, in my home. There are so many franchises that you've worked on out there that hold the same place to thousands, if not millions of people out there.
What does that mean to you to have that such a positive and such an inspirational creative effect on people throughout the world.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: I love it because I know what movies meant to me as a kid and as a fan of movies. This is why I got into this business.
And I remember meeting you're talking to people that worked on films that were like, what was that like? I mean, like you just said, like, movies are such a part of us and we all have. I mean there's that TV series, the movies that made us. And it's very well said because, you know, we are influenced, you know, culturally by our entertainment. And I still love doing these podcasts, speaking at schools, giving tours at the studio, and seeing people's reactions when they see this stuff because it, it really does fire me up and remind me why I got in this business because it does make people happy. And I just remember what it meant to me because, you know, growing up back east Hollywood might as well have been another planet. I mean, I conceptually knew it was real, but it just seems so far away and what I'm trying to do and especially with 10 year old college, like it's not that far away, it's real. You can be a part of it if you truly put your mind to it. I mean, and that's, that's the thing I try to do when I speak schools and I talk to people trying to get in the business, like you can do it. Like don't, don't think you can't. Don't think it's impossible.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: Oh my God. Mark, every time I get to sit down and talk with you is always phenomenal. I always learn something new and I hope the people out there who are watching and listening right now are learning something new out of this. Mark, for people who are interested and want to follow along in your journey, learn more. Where can they follow you online or see some of your stuff?
[00:46:37] Speaker B: I mean I'm on Facebook and Instagram. I post there sporadically. But I mean that's, I mean there's some videos about me on YouTube. Like I said, I'll speak to at schools and things. So if you just like type my name in YouTube, some videos might come up with me just blabbing about this stuff. So you know, and I do podcasts occasionally like this one. So yeah, just, I mean, yeah, I should probably post more on social media, but I'm such a scatterbrain. I don't.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: It's fine. I. Most of my life lives on social media. My job title here is social media manager. And if I can and whenever I am not yet production and social media manager for Mental Health America.
And yeah, if I can, when I don't need to be on social media. I am not on social media.
You know, you look at my social media, it is all work related stuff. It is projects. Like very rarely do you see anything personal of any kind.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: What's the old, what's the old saying? The plumber's pipes are always broken. Yes, cobblers. Kids always need New shoes. You know, it's like, yes. Oh, your house is totally, totally decked out for Halloween. I'm like, no, it's not. Like, if my kids want me to do something for them, I will. But it's not like this huge production that I do. I usually take the day off. So it's.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: Yep, without a doubt, 100. I feel that. Oh, my God.
So, one thing, of course, we'll make sure that we link back to Mark so people can check out things of his. But of course, we're also going to include his IMDb so you can see all the credits that we mentioned and did not mention. And honestly, that's just a fun movie marathon right there. Just going through that IMDb because you're going to get so many different genres out of it and so many different stories. It is fun. I've naturally just watched and consumed majority of it on my own. But it is fun to look back and kind of like, look at it contextually through the eyes of what the makeup artist, what the effects artists might be going through. Think about Mark the next time that you see those films.
[00:48:29] Speaker B: I do. I do have to say one thing, though, because, yes, I've worked on some great films that turned out great, but I also have the unique distinction of working on three of the top razzie films that had the most awards ever awarded to them.
[00:48:40] Speaker A: Which ones were those?
[00:48:42] Speaker B: Battlefield Earth I Know who Killed Me and Adam Sandler's Jack and Jill.
[00:48:50] Speaker A: Okay. I don't know. I. I haven't seen the second one, Battlefield Earth. Really? That has that many razzies?
[00:48:56] Speaker B: Yep, it's one of the top three. Wow.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: I got that going for me, too. Yeah. I've worked on. I've worked on some other films too, where I'm like, okay. Like, I mean, again, you never know. I'm sure people somewhere love those films. Great, I'm glad you do. But, yeah, top razzies, Jack and Jill,
[00:49:12] Speaker A: unfortunately, I can understand, but Battlefield Earth, Okay, I know it wasn't loved, but.
[00:49:19] Speaker B: No.
[00:49:19] Speaker A: To be up there with the most razzies. Okay, interesting.
Yep.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: It was. It was a great show to work on. John Travolta is a lovely human being, but, yeah, it's.
[00:49:32] Speaker A: Yeah, you're gonna have your hits, you're gonna have your misses, and you know what? It's all gonna. It's going to lead to a great story nonetheless.
[00:49:41] Speaker B: Oh, 100. And I love them all.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: There you go. Mark, this has been terrific. Both interviews. Absolutely phenomenal.
I hope that you felt like, you know, I tried to make something different and something unique and something fun for you.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: The the question about what would I make depression look like? That one I've never gotten before. And I'm trying to really try to give it some thought. Like, again, I know what I would make it look like for me, but. Yeah, just for me.
[00:50:04] Speaker A: So, as I said, avant garde question. But that's that's that's what my job is here. I'm trying to. Trying to make it interesting. Well, Mark, thank you so much for being here on Starlight Spotlights. We really appreciate you. Thank you for contributing to the series, and look forward to the next time I get to speak with you.
[00:50:20] Speaker B: Me, too, Connor. I look forward to it. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.
